Andrew Benfield might be one of the last great gentleman British explorers—evident as he pulls up to the cafe on his Enfield motorcycle, greeting the parking attendant in impressive Thai, the owner in near-fluent French, dipping into Spanish as the gin & tonics began to flow and, although the opportunity never presented itself, his basic knowledge of Amharic and Swahili would have capped it off. (I would later push him as to how many languages he could get around in, we got to eight in total—the aforementioned plus Hebrew, Hindi, Indonesian, and Arabic—before I asked him to stop.) But what he lacks in said explorer is the brash arrogance that usually follows such a moniker. He's self-deprecating to a fault, asker of more questions than he is answerer of them, and admittedly self-conscious about his newfound fame on the BBC. Andrew and I met one night in Bangkok, March of 2020, in a bar called Jack's—the last bastion of lockdown dodgers. We were both there to kiss the ring of the (underlined) legend who is Joe Cummings, and I was immediately taken with his humility. He embarrassingly had a copy of his book The Wrong Way Round to give to Joe, but did so simply saying he had read that Joe had himself an old Enfield, and might find it interesting.
Flash-forward three years later. I had just embarked on my trek to Everest Base Camp and Andrew popped up in my inbox with numerous tips, details and people to meet along the way. His memory of detail was impressive to say the least, and he occasionally worked in "Just tell them you know the Yeti guy" when it came to finding people along the way.
"The Yeti guy" would soon become his nickname the world round, with his 5-year long search ("Not hunt, please; the BBC asked we stay away from that imagery" he laughs) for the Yeti, debuting on the BBC... and how. Within its first few days, the 10 episode series shot to the top of BBC Sounds and has since been nearly all-consuming for this previous investment banker. It debuted the day before I had to leave Bangkok, and as I blew through all 10 episodes while packing, I resented having to leave on that very day, as I wanted nothing more than to buy him a few beers and ask him a hundred questions.
As luck would have it though, the day I rode into Luang Prabang, he randomly sent me a message asking if I would be in Luang Prabang anytime soon. I told him I had just arrived and he told me he was heading there in a few days, so I immediately booked him for drinks and an hour of his time.
So it's been a couple weeks since the release of Yeti. This is big. First off, what's it been like seeing it, your name, hearing your voice on the BBC, not to mention one of the top podcasts for them?
On BBC Sounds, yeah. It's been, it's been weird, it's been surreal. You know it's happening, but then, I mean, I listened to it on BBC Radio 4, which is the station I would listen to if I'm in the UK. And, you know, to hear the end of the preceding show, and then the announcer saying, and now a new series about two crazy guys going looking for the Yeti. Yes, it's quite strange. You also kind of think, what have I done? What are people going to think of this? Both from the point of view of, maybe they're not going to like it, and say it's not well made and it's a ridiculous idea for a program—these kinds of two middle-aged guys doing… but generally, the response has been very positive. I've been getting a lot of messages from complete strangers saying nice things, which is, which is lovely, I, I like that a lot, yeah, made me want to do more of it.
I mean, how long has this idea been in the making? At what point did you turn to Richard and say, we need to make a podcast out of our search for the Yeti?
I never turned to Richard and said that. It was something I thought would be fun to do. I'd heard stories when I was traveling in the Himalayas about the Yetis—everyone does—but I'd heard an increasing amount of them. Then I'd heard first-hand stories and I thought, this would be interesting to go check out. It's also a great way to travel to interesting places and meet interesting people. And I invited my buddy along, who I'd traveled with before, so off we went. Never thought to make anything out of this, this was just personal travel.
You weren't planning on making this a podcast?
No. And by that time I'd written a book about another trip I took, and so I thought maybe, you know, if I do a couple of these trips, it's interesting enough it could turn into a book. But that was a vague idea. Then we crossed paths just by chance with a guy who's a TV presenter and a producer—if you've ever seen a show on Nat Geo called Scam City, this guy goes to different cities and purposefully gets scammed with hidden cameras—so this was the guy that did that, Conor Woodman. And he met us and then he heard we were off on this Yeti trip and he said, you know, I make TV shows and I think that would make really good TV. It's an interesting subject and the dynamic between you two guys, which I'd never thought of. I mean, I get on well with Richard. We're kind of different personalities. I'm a little bit more mad. He's a little bit more smart. But yeah, Conor seemed to really like this thing. And so then it became like, oh, it could maybe be a TV show. So then we started filming a little bit on our phones. So that was back in 2020 and then COVID started and we couldn't do any more trips. There were messages from people in L.A. like, you know “Oh my God, we're so excited about this, we're gonna do it.”
You don't have to do the American accent.
That was my Canadian accent, actually. But it never came to anything and this has gone on for some time. We'd done another trip since then—I've been to Nepal, in 2021—and then last year in 2022, someone I know at the BBC came to us and said “I make podcasts for the BBC and I've seen on social media this Yeti thing you're doing with your friend. I think it would make a really good podcast.” And my immediate reaction was like, podcast? I mean, it's the Himalayas. You know what they look like? This is a visual thing. Yes, we're unlikely to be filming a Yeti, but what we're going to show you is amazing people, places, landscape, cultures. I mean, it is such a visual subject. But then again, it's the BBC, so we said “Okay, if you want to make a podcast, then sure, we'll do it, with, of course, the hope that would then lead to something else afterwards. A lot of things these days get started with a podcast, which is a smaller investment, especially if you're dealing with two complete unknowns. Um, and then if that runs, if that works well, you know, the BBC has an option to make something bigger.
Without giving the show away, what was your first memory of hearing or seeing or… I mean, when was the first time you met the Yeti, I guess? And can you take it back to the moment where you said, I wanted to look for those things?
You have this Rudolph, The Red Nosed Reindeer that plays on NBC every year in the US. That was the first time the West took and made this image of the abominable snowman, the white, shaggy beast. So I guess I'd heard about it as a kid. Then I was living in India in 2005, traveling up in the mountainous areas in the north and kind of heard some stories there, and then my ex gave me a book, which was the story of an expedition in the 1950s, sponsored by the Daily Mail newspaper in the UK. They went out there, you know, this huge expedition. They didn't find it, of course, and so it gets forgotten about. But this book was written by one of the guys who went out before the expedition to try and see which areas (this team) should go to. So he went around, met all these local people who had amazingly consistent stories of this thing. But then because, you know, they didn't find it. Well, if these brave white explorers couldn’t find it, then it can't possibly exist then… And I'm sticking my hand up. I'm happy to go against the orthodoxy if things don't make sense, let's say. And I just thought, like, what the hell? I mean, we've just dismissed this thing. And yet there were all those consistent local stories in the 50s. Now that's the 50s. It's a fair time ago. But, you know, you'd imagine you could find someone whose father or grandfather had told them those stories. So that's when I thought it would be interesting to go and ask people. Let's see if we can get some convincing stories. Actually, David Attenborough was interviewed in 2013. I saw the interview sometime later and he was asked “Do you think there's any big creatures left to be discovered?” And everyone's expecting him to say something in the deep sea or a microorganism and he says “The yeti.” He's looking for the yeti to exist. So for me, you know, in the mix of wanting to challenge this orthodoxy and thinking people have not taken this thing seriously but with huge self-doubt at the same time and fear of being ridiculed. But when you hear David Attenborough say he thinks it exists, it's like, Okay. We're on, we're going for this now.
So you spoke a little bit about your family. Am I correct in saying before this you were an investment banker that spent a lot of time in Africa?
I started in investment banking when I was very young and then I moved into international development work. So that's how I ended up working in Africa for many years and then in India, so it's a kind of a love of, of travel and wanting to see the world. And funnily enough, both the skills and the challenges of my work in international development are very similar to looking for the Yeti. In international development you have a bunch of foreigners, telling people in developing countries how things are, what's going to work, not listening to local knowledge enough. Yeti searching, same thing. A lot of foreigners not taking local people seriously enough. And then in international development, you're traveling to different countries, getting on with people and getting to the bottom of things. Cutting through BS. There's kind of a bunch of skills to do with relating with different people, cultures, travel, that, doing research, that also fit searching for the yeti. There's actually, I think, a natural progression from international development into searching for the yeti, I would say, yeah (laughs).
What did you and Richard do differently than all the other middle aged white explorers before you?
Well, I think people, especially recently, with the TV shows, they get a heat-seeking camera and think they're gonna go and see something. They have a very annoying, American, deep voiced voice over by someone like you, Aric, going “And then… a twig snapped.” We were like: people who live up there for a lifetime are lucky to see one once. We're not going to see one in a few weeks. So let's follow the local stories and hope they will eventually lead us to a bit of evidence.
But can I interject and say that isn't that kind of a white explorer would say? A local is lucky enough to see it. Do they see it as I was lucky to see it, or?
Exactly. Generally not. And there is a challenge there that a lot of people will say they won't want to talk about it if they've seen it. They will try not to see it. That's a bad thing. So that's, again, quite a different attitude to your average Western explorer, which is bag and tag and get it back to the British Museum and then do a talk at the Royal Geographical Society. The local attitude is like, "My life is tough enough living up in the mountains herding my yaks.I know this thing exists, I don't need to prove it.” It's there to be kind of a little bit feared. Revered. It can be bad luck if you cross one. Similar attitude that a lot of them have to the mountains. That's a holy peak, especially in Bhutan where mountaineering is banned, for example. We don't need to climb it and conquer it and take a selfie and put it on Instagram. That's there to be respected and we are humble in the face of it.
Speaking of locals who avoid the Yeti, you met a lady whose life was literally, I mean twice, you could say it was ruined not once, but twice in that she first dealt with the Yeti and then she had to deal with the Western media hounding her.
Yes, it was foreign media basically, the non-Nepali media that came in. Because the Yeti has been, let's say—in modern parlance fetishized by the outside world, it's been made into a joke, into a meme, it's been used to sell movies and books, it's been turned into something outlandish . So, to say, you know, if I said I was out looking for a new type of bear, or a new type of antelope, people would be like, "How excellent, how very interesting." Sure. Mention the yeti and, I mean, it's, it, you've got a toxic brand on your hands here. So, in 1974, this lady was attacked by something. She was thrown into a river, she was injured, and five of her seven yaks were killed—in a way that would take something enormous to do it. There was a police investigation and it was on the international news. We don't know how that happened or what creature could really do that, but she was physically injured and very traumatized by what happened to her. And then as you say, the foreign news media came in—one crew even, like, got one of their number to dress up as a yeti to reenact the event—and she got super traumatized. So that's another example of this kind of outsider’s insensitivity, saying, you know, well clearly this is just folklore and this is a joke. And yes, there are a lot of folkloric monsters and demons in the Himalayas. They're an integral part of Buddhism. They're used as a teaching aid. You know, as they are in other cultures as well. But there are also real animals. And when you speak to, for example, hunters, and they're very clear that, no, this is, you know, this is a real thing. If you're a bad kid in Bhutan, the yeti is going to come and get you, like the bogeyman. Or if you go and chop down trees in the forest, it’s not, oh, the government will come and arrest you. It's like, the Yeti's gonna come for your arse kind of thing. So it has this other kind of social role there as well. I've completely forgotten what the original question was now, and I wonder if I answered it.
It doesn't matter. I'll re-write it into something interesting.But you talked about if you were looking for a certain type of bear, right? And opening yourself up to ridicule. Yeah. If I can interject with my own experience, that earlier this year I went around, okay, not the world, but a large part of it looking for the Holy Grail, because that was what got me interested in tra—
Oh, sorry, when you've said that to me, I've literally thought that was a metaphor for something, but you were literally looking—
For the Holy Grail. Yeah, traced it, like, back to the Room of the Last Supper….
But it's in, it's in, it's in Ethiopia.
No, that's the Ark of the Covenant. Not the Holy Grail. See, if you'd watched the show, you'd know that. But what I dealt with was, you know, I thought it was really cool. But when I didn't get the huge response that I was expecting, I did have to look in the mirror and say: Dude, are you, you know… did you find just a unique path to relevance? Like, why are you doing this? So did you ever have the moment yourself where you said I'm a guy in his mid forties and I'm looking for a yeti.
I think it happened almost paradoxically after we got a bit of recognition. Now you'd think the recognition would be the thing that gives you that reinforcement, that kind of, you know, the outsiders have said this is valid. I should explain, when The Royal Geographical Society in London, which is like the world's kind of premier explorers club, you know, the place where Edmund Hillary went to speak about summiting Everest, where Ernest Shackleton spoke about Antarctica, um, where Henry Stanley spoke about his travels in Africa with Livingston, so, you know, it's a pretty storied institution. And they invited us to go and give a talk about our Yeti search there. And I’m thinking, is it just going to be the joke talk at the end of the evening or whatever? But the other thing was that, yes, a lot of people are now going to know about this. If it's just my hobby thing that I do in my spare time and I haven’t broadcast it, then no worries. I'm having a good time doing this and I'm seeing interesting places and meeting interesting people. But when you're on a stage and it's quite a famous stage, and talking about it, I mean, that was a bit when I got worried that I'm gonna be ridiculed and yes, then maybe it will affect my consulting career. I'm an independent consultant. I depend on clients to hire me based on my reputation and you know, Google me and, oh, he's the crazy Yeti guy. So I’m worried that maybe the work's gonna dry up.
Especially though, because you mentioned Shackleton, Hillary, Chichester, whoever, you know. They, they all went and explored something solid, you right? Something that was there in the picture that was tangible and could be proven.. versus your mythical quest.
Versus my thing, which is, yeah, some people would see as a mythical quest. I mean, it's one thing when you're getting consistent stories, good stories, first hand accounts, and you're sitting with people who are like, oh my god, there's something. But it's not always like that, especially when you're a bit lower down. And when I first got to Nepal, and also when we first got to Bhutan, there were days when we were just getting, you know, either the most fanciful accounts that were clearly ridiculous, or people just blatantly saying no, it doesn't exist. But those were people who spent lots of time in the wilderness, like a government biologist who'd done a multi-year tiger survey, and that undermined my argument that, oh, it’s just outsider arrogance denying its existence. And then Richard's turning around and just looking at me and going, “Well, you know, what do you want? This biologist has a PhD and he spent 15 years out in the wilderness..." And he's saying “No''. So at that point, yeah, then I feel like... oh, okay, yeah, I am the naive, silly one believing things and what am I doing? You should know better at your age. And at that point in Bhutan, we had to deal with the BBC, we were making the podcast by then and they'd said, “Where do you think you need to go for the final trip?” Okay, yeah, let’s go to Bhutan. And I was convinced it was going to be wall-to-wall stories, and we got there and we just weren't getting anything credible. And then there was the pressure that, you've staked your claim to this very publicly now, that you think this thing exists and you think you can really find it. I mean, it wasn't like you're not getting on air unless you come back with a Yeti, but we told them we would definitely get some good stories. So, at that point it strained the relationship between me and Richard, I’m thinking what if it is really just a myth? And yeah, one of the reasons to do it together was that if I could convince him, then I know there's something in it. So he was my check that I wasn't, I wasn't getting carried away with myself.
But you guys did a really good job—I mean, what surprised me about the podcast was how interesting the stuff not about the Yetis was. You guys really get into some personal stuff. Stuff that you didn't even see coming. Was that something that you knew you were going to have to address? Or did that kind of sneak up on you in terms of...
What kind of stuff are you...
You were talking about your own struggles, about not fitting in to a point where, I mean, it was such a strong catalyst that it kind of helped you move away from that in the UK.
Oh, it did, from not fitting in the UK—that's why I left. So for the personal stuff, I had an inkling for two reasons, I guess. One, when I wrote my book about this motorcycle trip I did and yes, it was an interesting trip, but so many people have written, “I rode my bike across there or I rode my bicycle across Laos…”
Jerk.
(Laughs) And then someone said, oh, “But weren't you breaking up with your partner at the time and she was on the back?” And I said, yes and they said, “Well, there's the story for you” and since then, since I published that, I mean, the world has gotten increasingly… Well, to the point where, if the story doesn't have an exploration into childhood, mental health, et cetera, it almost doesn't wash anymore. So yeah, we were, we were recording stuff in Bhutan, and I was feeling bad, and I thought—as I often have in life, actually—instead of just feeling insecure and scared, I mean, have the confidence about your insecurity to just air it. So you’re saying I don’t know what I’m doing, but you’re doing that in a kind of open way. So, we're broadcasting this now, but let's just be honest about it and think about, you know, if this is going to be something where you don't find any evidence of stories, then the story is that. And why did you feel the need to do this in the first place? You know, there is still an interesting kind of story in there. So I was forced to kind of go inwards, because I'm having to record a diary each night for the BBC. And I'm like, okay, well I'm really depressed because we didn't find any stories. But then I started asking, “But why, why is that?” And then you know—we were sending the producer the diaries each day —and she was like, well, that's really interesting. And then we happened to meet Kunzang Choden, this Bhutanese lady who'd had a somewhat similar childhood to me, in terms of that we were both sent away to boarding school. And the psychological effect that that kind of had on us. So yeah, that led to a train of thought about why I left my country in the first place. And like you, I have kind of, just, you know, left. 20 years ago. There were things I was running to—new experiences, differences, new cultures, adventures—but there were also things I was running from, like being pigeonholed in a certain way in British society. So that came up and yeah, like with the book where I put a lot of personal stuff in. So it is what it is. It's out there. Random strangers contact me on Twitter and tell me to not doubt myself and that things are gonna be fine. I mean, that's nice, but it's also weird as well, because it's like you don't actually know me. And so in that way, it's nice that it's being mainly broadcast and marketed in the UK, where I no longer live as I’m now based in Asia.
I like that you think you're in the 1950s where it's only playing on English radio stations. Here’s a question: From remembering to record, interacting with Richard, recording background, dealing with translators, fixers… I mean, organizationally, how did you wrap your head around everything? I mean, that's a lot of stuff going on in a foreign country.
Richard is very, he's very organized. He's almost as OCD as me. So, between us, we would always see the flaws in any plan, which is what I like. He's also a very pragmatic traveler, you know. He's brave, he's adventurous, but he knows where to draw the line as well. So he has banned a couple of things that I proposed doing (laughs). But yeah, we both had adventuring experiences. But we'd also always have a local fixer, guide or interpreter or someone who's helping as well but yeah, it is actually a lot of work. I mean, you don't realize if you've never made something that's gonna be broadcast before how much work it is because you can't just have a day where nothing happens—because you're there for a limited time. So it's, okay, which stories are we going to chase today? The other thing is, you can't script it and plan it, because we didn't, I mean, that's why the BBC took such a chance, was because they sent us to Bhutan, and we were like, okay, we've got some vague, possible stories, but what always happens with us is we get on the game round, we ask people, serendipity kicks in, and we just follow where that takes us, so can't give you an itinerary and that makes it more challenging. If you're doing a cooking show or something, you know, right, I'm gonna go to this restaurant, that one, sit there, eat that—it’s all planned. But we don't know what stories we’ll hear and where they're gonna lead, so we got to Northeast India and we heard about a murder few years ago. Okay, right. We need to go and see where it happened. But we’re not sure if we can actually get there, so we go off to another area and then we get a call. No, come back. We know someone that can take you up there. So you're kind of changing things up a lot. We travel light. We don't travel with lots of equipment . We stay kind of very flexible and agile, able to kind of go anywhere, wherever the story takes us.
You're speaking of all these amazing scenes. Once you all realized this was going to be a podcast, did you have added pressure to describe, I mean, if it's a documentary about the Himalayas, then I'm seeing the Himalayas. I compared your podcast to an old time radio show which I really felt like it was, with the diaries and the background music.. but you had the added pressure of actually describing the Himalayas.
I guess it's similar if you're writing a book that doesn't have photos, right? It's how do you describe things in words that people can't see and how do you paint that picture and what's the way to do that? Although, with a podcast, it's slightly easier than a book in that you've got sound effects as well. I can record the yak bells or the sound of my boot on the side of the mountain or whatever. I mean, finding the adjectives sometimes, you know, it can be stunning once, but then tomorrow, what's it gonna be? Uh, overwhelming, breathtaking? Oh, no, it was breathtaking last Wednesday. You're digging further back into the past and getting into these kinds of 1940s British phrases. Absolutely outstanding, my friend, yes. Jolly good, jolly good. And so that's definitely a challenge. You realize that the TV guys kind of have it made. The other thing, because you've only got audio, the quality of that audio, they're much more demanding than if you're filming. I mean, you have very high end sensitive audio equipment and it has to be really kind of crisp audio, otherwise the sound engineers get extremely upset with you, like Andy, why were you breathing so much?
Not to give away one of the crucial points of the podcast, but when we met in Bangkok a few weeks ago, you were late because you were on the phone about getting a possible Yeti hair tested somewhere?
I think I can say this… I think. Umm, it's a little tidbit for you that hasn't been released. So that day we met, I had to send this hair to the States for scientific analysis. And so, I Google “How do you send yeti hair internationally?” Amazing, you know, everything else you google has like a million hits. But this question got nothing. So I spoke to the professor in the States, and she's an expert in Himalayan bears, among other things. And she said, "Oh, just write “bear hair” on the form and that should be fine. So I went to the courier company, filled in the form, put the hair in there, and then I went to the bar to see you right after I’d sent it off. And a couple of days later, I got a message from the U.S. Wildlife, Fisheries and Wildlife, whatever you call it, like, “Sir, it’s come to our attention that you're, you're trying to import parts of a bear into America, and this is an endangered species for us, and you’ll need a certificate in line with the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora, you know and we're holding your shipment” and I start to wonder what the hell's going on. Like, are FBI agents gonna be knocking down my apartment door any moment? So I got quite nervous, and I was also like, Oh my God, I can't fail because everyone's counting on me to do this, right? This is the one bit of evidence we've got. And the people of Bhutan, Richard, the BBC, our listeners, like, you can't mess this up. And it was like, I just messed this up by putting bear hair on the form. And I was talking to Richard and he has something he calls a “Benfield Special” and not really in a good way, which is when I find creative solutions or creative ideas that he thinks might just work, but probably aren't a very good or sensible or responsible way to do things. So I'm in trouble because I've put on a form that this is bear hair. A bit difficult to turn around and go, “Ah! Sorry, it's something else now!” because they're going to say, like, “Why did you write that on the form then? Why did you lie?” And what am I going to say to that? But then I suddenly thought, you know, being a lover of the English language, I thought, well there's bear and then there's bare. So I replied to the customs and said, “It’s my colleague’s fault because I said “Put bare hair on the form”, because this was a bare naked human hair. Uh, they wrote ‘bear’ by mistake. I'm terribly, I'm terribly sorry, old chap, for the mix up. Very unfortunate and all that’, I mean, I really wrote it in a very kind of British way. And, in a couple of hours, the reply came back, “Yes sir, absolutely understood, sorry for wasting your time, and have a nice day.” And so my bare/bear hair got through.
What's next? You've got this bonus episode about the test result. And did I hear a rumor of a Christmas Special.
There is apparently also going to be a Christmas special, yes, which is a bit bizarre because in the UK you have a Christmas special if you're a soap opera or a famous game show. What will we do in that? I don't know, but obviously, if the BBC says, “Would you like to do it?”, then it’s Yes. Yes. Yep. Yep. Sure. Sign us up for that. I mean, the great thing would be for it to be made into a TV show by the BBC or someone else. If not, I mean, I've always enjoyed traveling with Richard. I didn't know that other people would be entertained by our quirky relationship, but apparently, you know, we gel together in a way that's attractive to voyeurs. He’s incredibly smart, he knows everything, but is humble enough to, you know, to kind of listen and have an open mind as well, whereas I'm generally trying to find humor in things so that I can make people laugh so I can feel that they like me—and so my insecurities go down. And so, I think, you know, if you had just me, it would be really annoying. And if you had just him, it might be too dry. So, I think, you know, together, we're just about the right level of moistness.
Andrew's Yeti is available through BBC Sounds, Apple Podcasts and Spotify.
Follow Andrew on Instagram here.
